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 Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:20 pm

dsimas wrote:
This is freakin' awesome, being able to reach an entire hand/fist to fiddle with 48 IDA's in a bug, without even using the door in the wheel well...

It's almost like working on a Ghia! Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:59 am

Okay, so I drove it. It sort of kicked my ass and scared me a bit. Feel like I need wheelie bars... OMG. lol!

We video'd but it was after dark, so nothing came out last night. Went for another test drive today and a CHP was on my bumper the whole way from Grass Valley to Auburn, so couldn't do anything other than cruise along... She was WAITING for me to do something. She saw us and hung a u-turn and followed me the whole way... Sad I have a Commercial Drivers License, I am held to a higher esteem on what is expected of my driving record. Off the job infractions of any kind are reported to Fedex and effect my career. Not an option.

BUT, I can still report to you:

Installed electric fuel pump. Hugo had one 20 years ago. I had a Weber catch on fire (air cleaner) in the 1990's and Ray talked me out of not using an electric fuel pump back then. He wants to use one now, so we mounted it to the same location since it was drilled and wired for it already. We may move it later, but it's good for now. His concern is that snow may get up there since this is my Daily. It's on the passenger side forward facing wall, behind the gas tank. I don't know what that location is called...



Put doors to cover the access holes in the fender wells.



Put heat wrap on the j-tubes of the exhaust. He will wrap the rest of the exhaust later, but right now we are in and out of the valve covers so often that he didn't want to drip oil down onto the wrap and have it absorb it. So, we'll wrap the rest after the engine is dialed in.



Mounted the second 72-pass cooler. As mentioned earlier, they each have independent tubing in and out of the case, they are not inline to one another. As for the location, 30 years ago or so, Ray did a *very technical* test on air flow under a vehicle to find out the best location. They put ribbons all over the undercarriage and put a sign in the back window that said "Test Vehicle In Progress" and followed it. Wink He discovered that these locations are the best. The air flow is pressurized between the pan and the road and gets pushed up vertically into the area right behind the torsion tube, straight up towards the package tray. It gets pushed through the oil cooler there. A lot of people put them over the tranny, but there is much less velocity to the flow there, in addition to them protruding more.



The engine holds about 8.5 quarts of oil if it were completely full. But we have about 7-7.5 right now. It's the same on Hugo's old motor (one less filter and one less cooler, but 2 quarts more in a deeper sump, same volume). I've always been told to run it 1 qt low on the dipstick because it pulls oil up from the sump. If it reads full on the stick, it's actually too full.

The first start up, the motor sounded very rough because the carbs were completely out of adjustment. It was very uneventful. Nothing blew out of the crank case, that's a good thing. Smile



This is Ray's routine at the initial startup of a new engine:

First he quickly adjusts the carbs left to right to make sure the linkage is synched well. Then he gets a timing light on it so that there's not too much advance (for this motor, right now he has it at 31 degrees total, 11 at idle), then he raises the rpms and sets it there for 15 minutes or so, being careful to monitor the oil pressure. FYI, mine currently is 70# cold when revved, 40# at idle. 60# warm, 35 at idle.

The reason for bringing up the rpms asap: The cam has irregularities and when it's first started they will be taken down by the movement. You do not want metal on metal or it could create a flat spot on your cam. Imagine a tire on wet pavement. The faster you go, the tire begins to hydroplane and separate from contact with the surface (we explained this earlier when addressing the heads of the valve stems and why Ray polishes them). With motor parts, you WANT that effect, so fast is better. If you slow the tire down, it will cut through the liquid and contact the pavement again...which you don't want in motor parts. So, oil is not only a lubricant, it is most important in creating this hydrostatic effect. When starting the motor for the first time, he quickly brings the rpm's up to 2500-3000 and holds it there, to remove the irregularities from the cam and "blend" the metal surfaces, without creating a flat spot.

At first the 48 IDA's were jetted at .70 idles, 1.35 main, 1.65 air correctors. He changed the idles to .80mm. You want it rich at first, this coats the combustion chamber and head of the piston with a sooty film which will cook on to prevent fire against the parts, like a shield. Then he rejetted them back to .70 for the test drive.

Here we are after adjusting the carbs and timing, and rejetting.



Not long and I'll get a driving video... Sofa king exciting!!
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:17 am

YES!!!! cheers So excited for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:28 pm

Can we say "Sleeper"? Little old VW takes us to Starbucks...



I'm at work during the week, so Ray is behind the wheel and Mateo used his camera and uploaded to his youtube. Note: this was going up a grade on the freeway, probably 4-5%. And going down on the way back on the onramp. But you can see the front end coming up, especially on the second pass downhill, in all gears. This is with all my tools and spare tire, and two dudes in the seats, and NOT at full throttle yet. Smile He babying the tranny too, it's got lots of miles.



He sent me this link this morning. This was my reply: "Spun the fan belt off" "Should I stop filming?" "Yeah" WTF?

Turns out it was an old belt. Luckily, the shop was about 1/4 mile away. Ray used one he had in the shop, not realizing how old it must have been. Normally they would twist and fly off, but this one just blew up.



Reason being: Big pulley = 2 to 1. The RPMs were probably about 7,000, so the alternator and fan are going 14,000. A power pulley helps, but it may likely run too hot. So, for now, a new better belt should be okay.

Carb update: The throttle currently only opens about 7/8. I think I posted pics way back initially on the carbs, but we are using a Gene Berg long arm on the linkage. It gives a longer sweep at the pedal. There's plenty of power with it like this, but later we will have to modify the pedal up front for full throttle.

We went with .60 idle jets and got rid of the major stumbling. Ray was the first to admit that he thought it was stumbling due to a lean spot, but it *was* too rich. It's such a different combination, there's no typical scenarios on this with the short manifolds, heavy breathing, with IDA's for street... So we are not going to be drilling a 4th hole, not necessary now. Almost all my driving is on the idle circuit. If you put your foot in it, the mains are happy. Runs well now. He wants to continue experimenting with the main/air jets later. 180/180 and maybe even 160/200, 170/200 and so on. I have a call into Art Thraen for some input, he PM'd me. He's a carb specialist. Smile

The accelerator pump is leaking at idle and that still needs to be addressed. It's not a driving issue, but at idle when the butterfly is closed. I'm not sure what else he's working on, but he texted me this picture last night at 10pm...



The lifts are full, so Hugo's butt is in the air like in the old days...



The alternator has some end play. Ray has ideas on what is going on with that, I don't know myself. So, he's taken that out and I will be reporting on what he finds out next.



Hoping to go to Test And Tune tomorrow if he can get it together and is happy with everything.... What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Holy sh*t!! I love that video of the drive! I was laughing my a** off. Hugo screams!!
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:27 pm

YOU SHOULD HAVE HAD THE SPEEDO IN THE SHOT AS WELL THAT WAY WE COULD SEE THE ACCELERATION AS WELL.

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:36 am

Zoom Zoom...

It's defiantly a religious experience. bounce

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:37 am

It makes you want a bug doesn't it? Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:37 am

silvertonguedevil wrote:
It makes you want a bug doesn't it? Cool

You're not talking to me? Surely you're not talking to me? I mean come on, THIS IS ME!!!

lol!

It is a bad ass bug, but the girls will be rockin' it soon enough...

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:17 pm

Matt-Should I stop filming now?
Ray-No hand me the camera so I can record how long it takes YOU to push us back to the shop!




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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:25 pm

Dude! You can drive for 5 miles without a belt...

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Last edited by Mateo on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:31 pm


The speedo was pegged out affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:48 am


On a hot day maybe 2 miles if its down hill with no belt .
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:58 am

I was being sarcastic... Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:02 am


Busted. What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:04 am

Yup... Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:09 am

Ray always uses Valvoline 20/50 Racing oil. And right now he's added zinc:



Added the breather box:



And plumbed it into the valve covers:



Added return springs to the carbs. I drove it yesterday and they are too tight for my liking. Such a different feel because of the harder pedal. Ray and Art are going over what he needs to buy to rebuild some issues with these 48's, they aren't worth sending back because apparently it seems these issues are pretty common, so easiest to just fix. The leaking accelerator pump is one thing, it's due to a loose shaft and the tight spring holds it from having that play a bit better. So, for now, it'll be that way until this week when Ray gets what he needs and discusses more with Art.



Here are my air cleaners I got off thesamba. But we are saving them for later when we can get to it. They're too close to the fire wall.



Ray got a new Gates belt. He wants it a bit loose so that it will slip on the alternator at high rpms and not overev it, but not slip otherwise. Considering that it would turn the alternator at 15K-16K rpms at peak (double the crank pulley at 2:1) when shifting. But this belt doesn't slip when he turns the engine with a wrench, even though it's a bit loose. We'll see how well it works.

We have monitored oil tempurature everywhere with an infared thermometer. At the 1st and 2nd oil cooler, at the oil filters, at the engine block. The temperature is consistently between 170 and 180 degrees. If we push the car hard, we can get it to 185 under high speed heavy load. The temp readings are made immediatley after high speed runs, with no waiting, no cooling time. The thermometer jives with the dipstick gauge, so they are accurate within a couple degrees.

He took some sheet metal off the heater box assembly of a donor and put it on the front side of the heads (pointing to it with the screwdriver). It is bent inward to channel the air directly on the fins from the fan in a tighter fashion.



Also, added tin on the back side of the heads for the same effect.



He then checked the valve's adjustment, which was okay, but noticed they were starved for oil at the top and drying out already. This was caused by the rockers being too tight to allow oil to flow, a design issue, or bad set (they were much worse on the left side). So, here's a big reveal of a something Ray has never shared, but decided to go ahead and divulge. He drills a .025 hole on the intake pushrods. They rotate within the tubes, so this makes them pump oil around like a Rainbird sprinkler. This oil cools the valve springs and the head. This has not only solved the dryness, but is something Ray has done for 30 years to help also reduce head temps. He says that oil is there to remove heat (by absorbing it and taking it away--to the coolers) as much, if not more so, than for lubrication. Currently on this engine, he has only done the intakes. The exhaust push rods could be done later also. This is why it is so important for us to cool the oil, in order to assist the heads in staying cool (since we have no doghouse and a shroud that we are testing).

Here's a picture of the drilled push rod. Sorry, it's blurry, Ray took it with his cell phone and I'm not there now to get a better shot.



You can see the oil mist and rain flying around the valve train in the spotlight's shine if you look closely:



As most of you know, the centermount fan shroud is very substandard as is.
Firstly: The fan is too narrow for the shroud. He needs to add the ring from a regular 1600 shroud to the center mount shroud to suck it in closer to the fan and create the desired vacuum effect. Secondly is the directional vanes (or lack of them): Ray and Mateo spent several days bench testing and modifying it to get MUCH improvement before we ran the engine at all. Here's Mateo's detailed report:

"The shroud as it comes is ineffective in getting any air at all to the 3 & 4 cylinders. The comment about tangential airflow from the fan is correct in conjunction with the steep angle of the shroud in my direct observations.
My observances were that air coming off the fan at say 10 o-clock slams directly into the angle of the shroud and is actually blocked from flowing back down towards the engine by air coming off the fan at say 9 o-clock, which makes matters worse as again the angle of the shroud seems to direct this air flow upward.
Air from the fan at 11 o-clock and above seems to be sucked over to the 1 & 2 side of the shroud by an almost venturi type effect.
All off this together seems to create a vortex of dead air on the left side of the shroud.

Without opening the kimono too much:

It has been necessary to add 'directional aids' similar in effect to that of a stock shroud to clean up the air flow. Air flow on the left side of the fan needs to be captured as it comes off the fan and cleanly directed upward and then 'hair-pinned' back down towards the motor. This stream then needs to diffused across the lower width of the shroud.
The air flow on the right side of the shroud also needs some diffusion to help break up the venturi effect described previously and balancing out the flow throughout the shroud.
Dawn's shroud is a prototype of this concept and at this time we are achieving about a 60 / 40 split of air flow between the two sides of the motor, a drastic improvement from the stock shroud. With further refinement it may be possible to gain a true 50 / 50 split.
All of this work has been done spinning the fan in the shroud at idle speeds, a limitation of the test bench. The question that needs to be answered now is if the improved air flow continues at increased cruising speeds on the freeway or does it break down because there is just too much airspeed and flow for the small chamber in the shroud to handle.
If it works at cruising speeds it is worth continuing the science project, if not then it is on to shroud design #2.
If nothing else it has been fun, and you wouldn't want to forsake anybody that..."


And it is working well.

We cannot use the thingy that goes in the spark plug hole to get head temps because the manifolds are too tight a fit there. He's been using the infrared thermometer (like a laser beam gun). Even when we went to Sacramento Raceway in the afternoon yesterday. Sitting in traffic on Sunrise Blvd for miles, running through 1st through 3rd gears only at slow speeds, sitting at long lights, for 40 minutes or so. The ambient temperature at the pavement with the gun was 74 degrees. The oil temp did climb as high as 195 sitting in traffic, but the moment we'd move around 25 mph, it would drop back down to 180 within a minute or so. We've decided that the solution for hotter weather/traffic/slow speeds will be adding a fan onto each cooler. I have two toggles on my dash that haven't been hooked up to anything in 30 years...now they can have a purpose. Smile

Head temps have been no higher than 350, but more typically in 200's. Also he mentioned that there is no "spark knock" at startup. After a hard pull, he shuts the engine down, then when he starts it again, there's no "bucking" or "spark knock". (Forgive me, I don't know what that is) After working on VW's for nearly 50 years full time, he knows what hot heads feel and smell like. *I* even know when I open a decklid, I can feel it radiate out and smell it. There is none of this. Even after hard driving up steep long grades in warm weather here, nor at the racetrack in the 1/4 mile, nor on the rack at high rpms for 30 minutes with no air flow. We will use it also on the dyno soon, while it's under a load, for the truest number.

So, we are pleased with the success of the shroud modifications and the car is running well within safe temps. Right now, I have been given the assignment of driving it. A lot. Put some miles on this thing for a week or so. Then Ray will take it back and resolve the carb issues and alternator end-play (getting a replacement sent), and anything else needing tweaking. Dyno on Wednesday hopefully. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:41 am

Submarine Driver wrote:
Matt-Should I stop filming now?
Ray-No hand me the camera so I can record how long it takes YOU to push us back to the shop!




NO PUSHING; Hugo made it on his own; REMEMBER HE IS A FRUNKENSTIITINNNNN !!
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:51 pm


By the way, we went to Test And Tune and did a pass to see where we are at. Ray really had no estimate since this combination is so unique and has so many mods.

Got a 14.92 at 2200+# w/ tools, spare tire, full gas tank, etc. Took it easy on the old stock tranny and the linkage is not even allowing full throttle yet. We think it would realistically get high 13's if lighter, new trans, and some tuning. I'd say I'm very happy with that. Very Happy

Tony Klink was psyched though after going for a ride and putting ideas in my head, saying with a racebox and 400# taken out, no alternator, the car would be in the high 11's, he said this with a BIG cheesy grin on his face. He's dangerous to be around....

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:09 pm

How does the air flow differ in a T3 engine? I've heard that it is better than in a T1. It would be interesting to see how evenly the airflow is compared to a T1.
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:12 pm

Jeff67Sqbk wrote:
How does the air flow differ in a T3 engine? I've heard that it is better than in a T1. It would be interesting to see how evenly the airflow is compared to a T1.

Mateo? Ray?
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:32 am

It's a completely different animal. Where to start, the whole thing is different.

Upright vs. Pancake...

One could say they both were effective in doing the job they were designed to do.

It would be my OPINION (not a fact) that if a Type 3 or 4 upright conversion OR a Type 1 pancake conversion offered drastic improvements you would see more of them done.

I think they are in the category of 'eccentric' and that is what makes them appealing and not necessarily a performance improvement (I wouldn't mind doing a Type 4 upright conversion just to say I have done one).

"The views expressed in this post are those of the author and not necessarily those of anyone else on this planet. If you don't agree, feel free to post your own opinions, but try to be a descent human being about it. Thank You"

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:36 am



When Cat and I do THE motor in her T-3 we will talk about this, Cat will be working with
me on this one taking pics. and reporting, on it. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:00 am


Going to the chassis dyno tomorrow (Wed). Any guesses as to HP/torque at the wheels folks?
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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:27 am

Do you really want me to win again???

185HP...

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PostSubject: Re: Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)   

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Hugo's engine build at the Magical Place (Vallero's Machine Shop)
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