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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 8:32 pm

Thanks buddy, I'll give it a shot. That's actually consistent with what my experience is so far as well. I have some time to tinker with it before work tomorrow, so I'll let you know.
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Jim Douglas Jr
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Thu May 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Don't overlook the timing. cars will often run with the timing way off, but can either be hard to start, or start well, but then run like crap.

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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri May 25, 2012 10:42 am

For sure, I will definitely double-check my timing.

Last night, when I got home from work, I put some clamps on the fuel hose between the pump and the carb. I also let it run and rev for a moment with the clamps on to drain the bowl a bit. We'll see how it starts today. It's one of those make-it-or-break-it ideas as I work soon this morning, so anxious to find out if I'm biking it or not.

edit: It started on first try, 54 degrees ambient. How do I adjust the fuel pressure?
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri May 25, 2012 1:11 pm

Mechanical fuel pump? I think you add gaskets under the pump to reduce the pressure...

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri May 25, 2012 4:46 pm

Little known VW fact:
Proper braided fuel line should not require clamps.
They can pinch the ends and eventually cause splits and leaks.

As for float bowl leaks on hills, you can bend the floats DOWN ever so slightly to reduce the level of fuel in the bowl.
This will sh-t off the valve a bit sooner.
Those valves do go bad, and sometimes the replacement valves are of a different length. If they're shorter, boom, the float adjustment is then suddenly too high as it has to float higher to trigger the valve and stop the flow.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri May 25, 2012 7:13 pm

OH, good call Kyle! That's a definite possibility...

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat May 26, 2012 10:13 am

For sure, I'm gonna tinker with the float today.

49°, no starty. Choke and throttle held open right now trying to air out the manifold.

Of cousre, it doesn't help that my mixture is way rich, and I can't seem to lean it out at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat May 26, 2012 10:22 am

Kyle...to true. I have bought a rebuild kit that had the longer needle. Focussed the he'll out of me Suspect I have yet to rebuild a carb that uses the longer one?.. What carb uses it?
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 30, 2012 2:58 am

Dave! What up pimpin? so I went through some trials and tribulations with my 30/31 when I first bought Abby. I have her dialed in now and she runs like a beast! Well as beastly as I can get a 1600 to run!
I have a suggestion for your morning starts. When you first walk out to her in the morning pop your hatch and manually set your choke to the lowest position on your cam gear. if it's not there already (IE: the position it would be in if the motor was warm.) then go try to fire her up without touching your throttle. If she fires let her idle for a sec then feel free to rev the throttle which in turn will reset your choke to the cold setting.
I know in mine, if I don't touch anything and just turn the key she fires instantly, the starter doesn't even make a full rotation! If I pump the gas once after the motor has had a chance to cool, that cam gear resets to full choke position and I play hell trying to get it started. Just as you described.
Also I had similar symptoms as you're having for a few days (minus the smoke) and found an air leak I was unable to detect with carb cleaner or propane. it was between the carb and the adapter plate that was bolted to the manifold. I didn't even realize that an adapter plate existed! tricky little bastard, I couldn't find the bolts to tighten it until I pulled the carb and they were literally underneath it. If you are unaware that they exist, like myself at the time. they are Impossible to see or get to until you pull the carb.
It took me a week to dial in my motor simply because I wasn't quite educated on how the whole set up worked. you know me brotha I'm used to the dual baby webers! Loved that set up. People complain about the difficulty of dialing those in, however as soon as I got that float gauge tool it was super simple. I'm going to get some ASAP!!
Any way home boy, hope that helps. I plan on mobbin to the bay some time soon so get that ride of yours running tits so we can cruise!!!
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Jim Douglas Jr
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 30, 2012 1:53 pm

It's pointless to tinker until the timing, valves, and points (if you're using them) have been checked and the age of the plugs determined. Bad plugs will cause weird starting issues.

Car runs poorly, do the complete tune up procedure to eliminate possibilities.

Adjusting the carb will often compensate for them, or seem to make a difference, which it will, but not fix the problem.

The 30/31 is a very forgiving carburetor. You seem to be getting a very temporary result from your adjustments. This to me sounds like a different problem. The 30/31 will do it's job decently at almost any setting.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Thu May 31, 2012 4:12 pm

Here's our morning routine.

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Thu May 31, 2012 4:20 pm

Get a copy of "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" by John Muir. $15 used on Amazon.
Go through entire tune up procedure including new spark plugs.

The test:
Will it fire and keep running with starting fluid? If yes, then a fuel delivery problem.

You can test the fuel pump by taking the hose off the outgoing thingy. Turn the engine over with a wrench by hand. Fuel should squirt out.
Are you sure the inlet and outlet hoses are in their proper positions?

There isn't any reason you can't have this car running in 30 minutes, but you will need to eliminate possibilities systematically.

If I come up this weekend, maybe I can take a look.

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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Thu May 31, 2012 4:27 pm

Dude if fuel is coming out of the float bowl over flow (Brass tube in upper center of the carb) then your float bowl needle is not closing correctly which in turn is flooding out your car.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Thu May 31, 2012 5:34 pm

Jim Douglas Jr wrote:
Get a copy of "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" by John Muir. $15 used on Amazon.
Go through entire tune up procedure including new spark plugs.

The test:
Will it fire and keep running with starting fluid? If yes, then a fuel delivery problem.

You can test the fuel pump by taking the hose off the outgoing thingy. Turn the engine over with a wrench by hand. Fuel should squirt out.
Are you sure the inlet and outlet hoses are in their proper positions?

There isn't any reason you can't have this car running in 30 minutes, but you will need to eliminate possibilities systematically.

If I come up this weekend, maybe I can take a look.


Thank you, Mr. Douglas. B-)

Breck wrote:
Dude if fuel is coming out of the float bowl over flow (Brass tube in upper center of the carb) then your float bowl needle is not closing correctly which in turn is flooding out your car.

Although I don't think fuel is actually making it out through the bowl vent, I do agree that there's too much gas in the bowl. I used the thickest copper crush washer on the needle valve when I installed it, I haven't tried bending the float up a bit.

With no money for a tune-up, and no desire to continue tweaking without being able to actually fix it, I posted this just so you guys could witness what it's putting me through until I can get the stuff I need.

I did check my valve lash though, on a cold engine, and the points look good and are gapped properly.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Thu May 31, 2012 10:13 pm

MOSSE'!!!!!! Is uzzzz sliipin in ur old age???? just about everything everyone has told you during this thread, I know-You know!!!! Dude, back in the day, when we were working on my cars, you would have smacked me on the back of my head and said "Tookie!! Seems as if uzzz got yo self a conundrum uzzzz douche' nozzle! Then 10 mins later you would have had it running! Or atleast narrowed down the issue!!!!
When your ride finally started it barely puffed out a lil black smoke! doesn't seem like a flooding problem to me. I'm just sayin. So hike up ur skirt and figure that sh-t out maaaaaaaan!!!! afro
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:31 am

LOL Tookie!

Of course I know that you know that I know. But they might not know that I know, so I appreciate and respect all advice I get, whether I already had an idea or not. Smile

Yea, that was definitely one of its smaller puffs, and until I can do a full tune-up per Jim's recommendation, I'm not going to say for certain what it is. It just seems way rich from what I see, feel, and smell, and I'm pretty sure that the problem will be with my carb(s) one way or another.

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 am

Several points:

Just because it's flooding doesn't mean it's the carbs. 30 seconds of cranking without firing will flood it.

If you smell fuel, the pump is likely OK.

Float would need to bent DOWN - but just slightly and/or use a thinner washer.

A tuneup costs virtually nothing - Bosch plugs are $2.75 each. Points are $6.00 - $8.00, so under $20. That's a lame excuse.
This post has a short list of things to check. Do them. Your problem is likely NOT your carb. Many VW issues seem like it, but aren't.

You can check the opening and closing of the points by taking the distributor cap off and manually turning over the engine with a wrench (just like you would doing a valve adjustment) and observing them. They are VERY forgiving about gap as long as they open and close.
Speaking of, check your valve adjustments. This is free and takes 15 minutes, unless you don't know how, then you should not own an aircooled VW. One of us can show you how.

If you think you're running rich, you need to take out the plugs and clean them anyway. Might as well replace them - especially if they have 10,000 miles or more on them or you don't know how many miles. They CAN and DO go bad.

Turn the small screw (fuel mixture) all the way in once it's running to see if that's the problem. It's "home" position should be 2 - 2.5 turns out from bottom. Do not force it. Stop inward turning as soon as you meet resistance or you'll flatten the jets point. Try the starting fluid trick to get it running.

If a skinny homo like me can do it, so can you. These things all may seem a little daunting at first until you try them.
I hope you'll do some of this, not just continue fiddling with your carbs, which has proved fruitless.
My only sources of transportation are two 1963 VWs, and I know how to keep them running.

It's OK to admit you need help. That's how we learn.
If you'd only ask, someone here will come over and help you. I'm in San Francisco, so a little far away. I may be up this weekend or more likely next.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:37 pm

Jim Douglas Jr wrote:
Several points:

Just because it's flooding doesn't mean it's the carbs. 30 seconds of cranking without firing will flood it.

If you smell fuel, the pump is likely OK.

Yes, the pump is fine.

Quote :
Float would need to bent DOWN - but just slightly and/or use a thinner washer.

The float in my 34/3 was all plastic and not manipulatable. The float in my 30/31 was the foam/metal kind. I did swap them and bend it down yesterday, and if I said up it was by accident. It was worth noting that combined with the longer needle on the valve and the thicker crush washers I used on it that the fuel was just above halfway full in the bowl.

Quote :
A tuneup costs virtually nothing - Bosch plugs are $2.75 each. Points are $6.00 - $8.00, so under $20. That's a lame excuse.
This post has a short list of things to check. Do them. Your problem is likely NOT your carb. Many VW issues seem like it, but aren't.

I understand your frustraton with me not having done a full tune-up again. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and can hardly afford to feed myself right now, so a set of sparkplugs is low on my list as long as I have a bike to ride.

Quote :
You can check the opening and closing of the points by taking the distributor cap off and manually turning over the engine with a wrench (just like you would doing a valve adjustment) and observing them. They are VERY forgiving about gap as long as they open and close.
Speaking of, check your valve adjustments. This is free and takes 15 minutes, unless you don't know how, then you should not own an aircooled VW. One of us can show you how.

The points were new when I put the engine together. I gapped them and checked them then, and I did it again the other day. They show no pitting or wear. They open and close properly.

The valves were adjusted when I put the engine together, and re-checked when I checked my points. They are where I set them and haven't changed. I did set them a hair on the loose side, but read that was okay.

Quote :
If you think you're running rich, you need to take out the plugs and clean them anyway. Might as well replace them - especially if they have 10,000 miles or more on them or you don't know how many miles. They CAN and DO go bad.

I will be picking up some new plugs today, and a new cap and rotor if it's in my budget.

Quote :
Turn the small screw (fuel mixture) all the way in once it's running to see if that's the problem. It's "home" position should be 2 - 2.5 turns out from bottom. Do not force it. Stop inward turning as soon as you meet resistance or you'll flatten the jets point. Try the starting fluid trick to get it running.
And here lies my biggest problem. The mixture screw will either stall the engine when it's all the way in or all the way out, but makes absolutely zero difference in the engine's running anywhere in between. The idle never changes, and it never idles smooth, instead poppng and rocking as it runs. The air bypass does work well enough for me to set the idle speed, but I literally seem to have no control over the mixture. The heavy black soot on my pipes tell me I'm rich, as well.

Quote :
If a skinny homo like me can do it, so can you. These things all may seem a little daunting at first until you try them.
I hope you'll do some of this, not just continue fiddling with your carbs, which has proved fruitless.
My only sources of transportation are two 1963 VWs, and I know how to keep them running.

I really do appreciate all of your, and everyone's, advice. I've been working on cars for a very long time, and know my way around the internal combustion engine and the Otto cycle. Not to shabby with a 2-stroke either. It's the carburetor sitting on my intake and the lack of sensors and engine control modules that I'm still acclimating to.

Quote :
It's OK to admit you need help. That's how we learn.
If you'd only ask, someone here will come over and help you. I'm in San Francisco, so a little far away. I may be up this weekend or more likely next.

Again, greatly appreciated. But knowing how far most of you are, I just wouldn't feel right asking y'all to come so far for what may be the simplest little fix.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:25 pm

Breakthrough!

I have a very weak spark coming out of my distributor.

The spark from the coil is great, but is crap coming out of my distributor.

High hopes that a new cap n rotor will alleviate the trouble.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:24 pm

"And here lies my biggest problem. The mixture screw will either stall the engine when it's all the way in or all the way out, but makes absolutely zero difference in the engine's running anywhere in between. The idle never changes, and it never idles smooth, instead poppng and rocking as it runs. The air bypass does work well enough for me to set the idle speed, but I literally seem to have no control over the mixture. The heavy black soot on my pipes tell me I'm rich, as well."

Dave I had this same problem, turned out the adjustment will not work it you have air leaks. I had 1 inch cuts in my intake boots as well as leaky intake to head gaskets. Once I solved the air leaks the carb screws function fine. The holes in my intake boots were both on the back side of the boot, out of sight!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:03 pm

Breck wrote:
Dave I had this same problem, turned out the adjustment will not work it you have air leaks. I had 1 inch cuts in my intake boots as well as leaky intake to head gaskets. Once I solved the air leaks the carb screws function fine. The holes in my intake boots were both on the back side of the boot, out of sight!!!

I figured an air leak as well. My intake boots are the newer red silicone, and I've checked them for leaks by spraying carb cleaner around them while the engine was running. I also sprayed down the manifold-to-head seals, and the carb base seals, and there was no sign of vacuum leaks. Any other pesky areas I can check? I usually use an unlit propane torch to check for leaks, but I don't have any gas and figured carb cleaner would work just as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:40 pm

Fired right up with the new cap, but the rotor doesn't fit my distributor so still have the old one in. I asked for the cap and rotor for a 71 SB, not realizing that I have no idea what year/model my dizzy actually came from. It's the short distributor with no mechanical advance, and the larger vacuum can.

So the rotors are different, but are the caps the same? Or should I take them both back and get a matching cap and rotor for my distributor?

I have a knock-off 009 but prefer not to use it.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:15 pm

For me I always take my crap with me.....seems the only way I ever get the right stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:47 pm

Yea, I should have. It would have saved me a trip.

So that was at least a big part of my problem, I've been using the wrong distributor cap for my rotor. There's been a huge gap between my cap's center coil electrode and the contact point on the rotor itself. Now that I think about it, it has been getting progressively worse, which would coincide with the contacts inside my distributor progressively wasting away from the arc... Sad

<--- Idiot


Got the correct cap and rotor for the "Type 3" distributor that I have and all is well thus far. Again, the real test will be tomorrow morning when I go to work...

Oh, got me some new plugs, too. Smile

I wish it was around that $20 estimate, but instead was about $45 out the door.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:52 am

I've never been so happy to have made such a dumb mistake.

Funny how well a car will run when there isn't this much gap ->||||||||||||||<- between the cap and rotor...

Car fired right up this morning first try, rich burning soot and all. I have cream for my coffee. I'm a happy man.

This chapter is closed.
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