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 Morning cold-start issues...

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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat May 19, 2012 1:56 am

My Bug has a 1600DP. It is infuriatingly difficult to start in the morning.

We're talking 70 degrees outside, and I have to crank it 'till I run the battery flat. It might sputter and fire a few cyls in a row, but then it won't catch on the next, and then it won't even pop for another few minutes.

What's going on here?!? Mad

I have a H30/31PICT on there right now. I have a freshly rebuilt 34PICT3 that I'd like to be using instead, but last time I tried it I had a hell of a time tuning it. I ended up finding a broken rubber vacuum nipple that I believe had a hand in that problem though, as well as I ended up finding out the car ran like ass with the headlights on. Both the electrical and vacuum nipple have been fixed since I tried the 34/3 and I'm itching to try it again, but I'm not sure that is part of this problem.

I say that because once the engine finally catches (sometimes hours later) and can sustain itself, it will fire up again all day no problem, even if it cools back down completely. But if I shut it down after that first start without getting enough heat in the heads and jugs, it will likely "flood" out again, if that's what's happening.

Has anyone had a head fail in a manner that would fill a cylinder with oil over night? I think if it's flooding at all, it's flooding with motor oil over night because when it finally catches, it will idle rough untill it blows out a lot of oily smoke, and then as the smoke clears so does the idle. At this point, it will run good for the rest of the day.

Please help, any advice is appreciated.

PS: Engine's cold compression is ~120 across.
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silvertonguedevil
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat May 19, 2012 8:13 am

When you say "oily smoke", are you talking about black smoke or blue smoke? Black smoke would indicate fuel and a too much of it situation. Blue smoke is generally burnt oil and is usually a sign of some required motor work.
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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat May 19, 2012 9:40 am

If it is black smoke as Greg discribes then it is fuel (rich). Since it is happaning over night (car has sat for a long period) then I suspect your float bowl needle is sticking open. The next time you go to start it in the morning hold the pedel to the floor until it catches. If it billows black smoke on ignition then fuel is getting into the cylinders while the car is resting. This can occure because there is still residual pressure from the fuel pump after shut down. If your float bowl needle is not closing the fuel off completely it may cause overflow into the carb and possibly into the cylinders. Now this is all an hypothesis mind you. I am by no means an expert.........yet! What a Face
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Sat May 19, 2012 10:17 am

silvertonguedevil wrote:
When you say "oily smoke", are you talking about black smoke or blue smoke? Black smoke would indicate fuel and a too much of it situation. Blue smoke is generally burnt oil and is usually a sign of some required motor work.

The smoke is thick and greyish, maybe a slight blue tinge. I say it's oily because I can smell the burning oil in it heavily and it also will stick to my clothes and hair so I stay away from the back of the car on the first start.

Breck wrote:
If it is black smoke as Greg discribes then it is fuel (rich). Since it is happaning over night (car has sat for a long period) then I suspect your float bowl needle is sticking open. The next time you go to start it in the morning hold the pedel to the floor until it catches. If it billows black smoke on ignition then fuel is getting into the cylinders while the car is resting. This can occure because there is still residual pressure from the fuel pump after shut down. If your float bowl needle is not closing the fuel off completely it may cause overflow into the carb and possibly into the cylinders. Now this is all an hypothesis mind you. I am by no means an expert.........yet! What a Face

I suspected the float needle as well, and that's why I'm anxious to put on my rebuilt 34PICT3. I need to tear the top half of the motor off to install a thermostat (fan shrouds, intake, etc) so I'm wating for that time to install the carb.

But holding the throttle open does not help. In fact, if I even add a drop of fuel by thinking of touching the pedal, it will not start. Like this morning; start cranking without touchng the gas. 15 seconds later with not even a hiccup, start rolling onto the throttle. To the floor, it may fire a few cylinders in a row, but then it will not even pop after that. Nothing. Not even a friggen peep except the starter slowing down as the battery depletes...

Right now, I have a fire extinguisher holding the gas wide open and a Bic lighter holding the choke open, and not even a hint of life from this engine. It's 60 degrees out and it will not start. Infuriating.

Again, once it finally starts, its going to blow out a ton of oily smoke and be fine for the rest of the day. Unfortunately, I don't have the three hours to burn to wait for the correct combination of ambient temperature and oil/gas/air ratio to become stoich for this heap of crap (venting) to get me to work. Looks like I'm biking it...
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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 10:45 am

Wow Dave, sorry to here it is a pita!!Sure sounds like the top end is tired.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 11:35 am

Today's the 4th morning in a row with a no-start condition. I've ran out of energy to be angry, so I'm going to bite the bullet and slap on the 34/3. It's already flooded, so I won't have results today, but assuming I get the 34/3 running and tuned, we'll see how it acts tomorrow.
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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 1:03 pm

Good Luck!!
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Need Air

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 2:16 pm

Hope the pic 34 works for you... Dion .
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Pulled the 30/31 off of the car, and it was oozing gas from every orifice. At this point, I decided it must be the carb's needle valve. Pulled out my plugs, and cylinder 1 and 2 were completely soaked with gas, which makes sense since those two are tilted down due to the crown of the road where we park it. The intake manifold was visibly wet and reeked of fuel.

So I cranked the engine for a few moments with no carb or plugs to air out the jugs a bit. During that time I cleaned my plugs with a wire brush and checked their gaps. They were all slightly carbon-fouled which was a recent development since I've had them out last a few days ago. I also burned out any remaining gas around the electrodes with a torch.

Put the plugs back on, but left the carb off, and cranked it again to actually pull air through the intake manifold before installing the 34/3. I made sure to turn the idle jet set screws in completely and then out the prerequisite 2.5 turns. Went to crank the engine, and with a quick pump of the accelerator (carb was still full and primed from my last attempt with it) it fired up to life. It was pretty epic.

Let the motor warm up a bit before I dialed it in, and then took it for a drive. The 34/3 has made quite a difference for performance. Maybe it's the fact that it's vsibly larger, or maybe it's just not dumping needless amounts of fuel into the engine, but either way the engine is running the best ever and pulls strong, even in fourth.

So even if it craps on itself tomorrow morning, it was worth the performance gain at the least. B-)
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silvertonguedevil
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 3:11 pm

Nice!! cheers
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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 3:12 pm

HA!!! I knew I was right!!! Too much fuel. Glad you got it sorted!!
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Need Air

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Mon May 21, 2012 3:46 pm

Glad u r back on the road ... Dion..
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Tue May 22, 2012 3:54 pm

Well flooded again this morning, but was pretty easy to start after warming up the carb and manifold with a heat gun.

It was running way rich last night, too, and was burning through my gas wicked quick, so I want to believe that played a part in it flooding again. I messed with it some more today and seem to have it dialed in well at the moment. I was getting some hesitation on full throttle, but no popping, so I dialed back the accel. pump a bit and it feels like its pulling smooth now.

My lady and I are about to cruise around for a bit in it, so we'll see how it does.
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silvertonguedevil
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Tue May 22, 2012 10:50 pm

Good luck! Let us know.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 12:14 pm

64 degrees, no start.

F'ing stupid...


Going to pull the 34/3 off, take out the new parts, and rebuild the 30/31 instead. I'll just have to wait 'till I can afford a brand new carburetor.
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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 3:31 pm

Unless the shaft that runs thru the carb is wasted I can see no point in buying a new carb. A rebuild kit for either will prolly solve the issues if it IS a carb issue and not a tired topend issue.. just my two cents!!
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Need Air

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 4:03 pm

Dave wrote - An interesting problem regarding flooding -- we parked the car in a spot that was sloped, the engine end down. When we came out the car wouldn't start -- it acted for all the world like it was flooded. So we pushed it around facing the other way, and after a couple more tries it started right up. I'm hard pressed to understand why the carburetor would flood under those circumstances. Even if the gas would tend to drain toward the low end, it couldn't get past the fuel pump, could it? Is there maybe something wrong inside the carburetor (float, perhaps?) What would cause this problem?

Rob responded - Two possibilities come to mind -- the needle valve in the carburetor and (faint possibility) the idle shut-off not shutting off properly.

In the early days before the idle shut-off, flooding carburetors from facing up hill were not uncommon. The top of the fuel tank is about level with the top of the carburetor so it doesn't take a lot of uphill to put some of the tank above the carburetor.

Yes, fuel will "leak" through the fuel pump, since the two one-way valves inside allow fuel flow in that one direction - it doesn't matter where the pressure comes from - you could pressurise the tank with compressed air and fuel would flow through the pump too.

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Need Air

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 4:04 pm

I found this on Rob And Daves air cooled pages .... Hope it helps ... Dion Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 4:16 pm

The needle could be sticking "down," allowing excess fuel into the carburetor when the car is parked from residual pressure in the fuel line between the fuel pump and the carburetor. Now we know why a new float needle valve is included in the carburetor overhaul kit! And why it's important to overhaul the carburetor every couple of years or so.
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 5:15 pm

Thanks for the advice guys.

As an aside, the last few times we've started it after flooding, there hasn't been any smoke. At least, nothing like it was blowing out before. So even though it (the smoke) smelled oily and lingered on my clothes and hair, I'm inclined to believe that it was moreso soot from rich combustion and not thick oil smoke.

So with that information, what kind of head issues may I be looking at here? Worn valve guides? A burnt valve or two maybe? I should check my valve clearences again, but set them a tad loose before I put the engine in the car.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 6:02 pm

I would start with the easy stuff first befor jumping into the motor ,I would do a complete tune up plugs, wires ,cap,rotor,points if you have them,valve adjustment and timing . How does it run when you drive it ,is it running on all four and will it smoke the whole time or dose it quit when it warms up . Also check your compression,should be above 120 psi ...
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Breck

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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 6:22 pm

I agree with need air get the simple stuff sorted first. My original comment was based on the blue oily smoke. If that is gone,,,,start at valve adjustment and move thru the whole tune up process first. Once you know that its sorted you can fight the carb issue
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TheAmazingDave



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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 7:04 pm

Need Air wrote:
I would start with the easy stuff first befor jumping into the motor ,I would do a complete tune up plugs, wires ,cap,rotor,points if you have them,valve adjustment and timing . How does it run when you drive it ,is it running on all four and will it smoke the whole time or dose it quit when it warms up . Also check your compression,should be above 120 psi ...

Once it's started and warmed up, the car runs great. It's running rich for sure, but it's not blowing out smoke. It was bogging out during accel when I first put the 34/3 on, but it wasn't backfiring which I believe would have suggested lean mix so I dialed back the accel pump and it seems to pull smooth now when warm. Cold compression is ~120 PSI across, I haven't checked it warm.

Sounds like it's tune-up time this weekend.
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 7:35 pm

Good luck on the tune up and let us know how it goes... just post any questions you mite have and the group will answer as much as we can... Have fun. Smile Dion
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PostSubject: Re: Morning cold-start issues...   Wed May 23, 2012 8:27 pm

Dave one thing that you might want to try is re-adjusting your 34. Now this is my personal experience here. When trying to get my super running correctly every source that I found sugested that both needles be adjusted to 2-3 turns out. I screwed around for days using this as my starting point with no success. I then ran into an old old vw guy who told me that 2-3 out was BS on a 34. He suggested 2-3 on the top needle and 6!! on the lower needle. Well since I had tried everything else with no results I tried what he suggested and Voila there ya go it ran. And it ran without falling on its face and it idled. My carb is a german Pict 34. Since the initial setting I have tweeked it to 2.5 small and 5.5 large and it runs like a champ and I get around 26-29mpg. A second experience with the dreaded 34 is when Badfish came by with his bus. The bus was running the 34 and would not idle. We adjusted the top to 3 and the bottom to 6 and his bus now idles and runs. I am not sure if he has done any additional tweeking. Hope this helps. Wont hurt to try b4 ya swap out the carb again. Breck
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