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Breck

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PostSubject: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:17 pm

On Thursday morning when starting the 64 she was very reluctant to fire. It took much coaxing to get her to run. Ryan drove it to and from work (36Miles) with no problems. Friday morning same deal real hard to start but she did. Ryan took off to work and got about three miles from the house and she died on the freeway. Acts like it has no gas.... just dies. Ryan sat for about five minutes and she fired back up and went down to watt ave and made the u turn back on the freeway and made it to the
Starbucks near my house (Greenback and Garfield) and she died again. This time we swapped cars, Ryan went to work and I stayed with the bug. Two minutes later I got it to start and headed the last mile of the jurney. I had to keep pumping the accelerator to keep it running. When I pulled into the garage and let off the accelerator, she died. I pushed her up to the garage. let her cool and static timed it. Once again very very hard to start. To start it you have to floor it like it s flooded and get off just after you here it fire. Once running I timed it a 10 degres per the book. I then proceded to drive it around our neighborhood.....nothing happened??? She ran perfect. Up and down a back street up into fourth then back to first over and over. She ran perfect!! Soooooo when I got home I switched it off let it sit for about 30 seconds, blipped the starter.........wont start. So now I am pissed off. I have been saving my brand new 009 dis with the electronic set up for Lilly. But enough is enough. I change the distributor and the coil. Static timed it again, forced the bit$h to start (very very hard) Used the light to time it while running. Drove it around the neighborhood again same way as last time. Now the car runs better than it ever has!!!! I am stoked!!! Get home shut it off..........wont fu#king start.. Pissed beyond words. Push the pos into the grage and work on my rockets.....Fu$k it....not my car anyway. This was all on Friday after work.

Saturday.... new plan me thinks...must be fuel cause I aint gots no more "f"ing parts. I pull the carb off go thru the whole deal again. Nothing is out of place,everything seams to be working. Put it all back together. Car will not start. not at alll now. If you floor it and turn it over it will fire and blow black smoke (duh I know its flooded!!)
But now it will not continue to run... So I give up for the day and plan My Sunday with a new plan. #1) Adjust the valves #2) check the points.....wait dont have them now.
#3) static time it again. #4) replace both the clutch cable and the throttle cable (need doing) then start the car and drive it off a cliff.......not really.

So how did it go. Both cables are in, valves are adiusted (everything was tight) timing set, new plugs in. Got spark, got fuel, nice smooth throttle cable and........wont start.

So what have I missed. After replacing all the electrical and going thru the carb I still have the same problem.. The four old plugs were covered in black soot...not wet....fluffy black soot. When I try to start it it will only fire when floored but will not stay running. I have poured gas down the carb....(not floored) nothing not even a chuff. I have sprayed starting fluid right down the carb with Ryan turning the engine over...NOTHING!!!! WTF!!!! Starter Fluid will ramp up an eighty year old Nun!!!! COME ON NOW!!!!! What the hell is going on...

So there you have what Breck did his entire Easter weekend......end result, boy is still driving the wifes car to work which keeps me farther and farther away from justifiying why I need a 60"s bus.. SO HELP A BROTHER OUT!!!! Please tell me what I have missed....Thanks for looking. peace
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mikeinch

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:14 pm

OK this may or may not help. I had a 65 bus when I was in my twentys that used to have trouble starting and it demonstrated a lesson I learned in high school auto shop. Never forget about the ground. A car should have a ground strap connecting the engine, the frame and the body. In my VW's case I didn't have a ground strap running to the engine. The only contact to ground for the engine was the throttle cable. when there was a good ground, it ran fine. When it lost ground, everything went haywire (wouldn't start, ran rough, couldn't time it).

Check the ground! It cant hurt.
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Davids74Super
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:27 pm

mikeinch wrote:
OK this may or may not help. I had a 65 bus when I was in my twentys that used to have trouble starting and it demonstrated a lesson I learned in high school auto shop. Never forget about the ground. A car should have a ground strap connecting the engine, the frame and the body. In my VW's case I didn't have a ground strap running to the engine. The only contact to ground for the engine was the throttle cable. when there was a good ground, it ran fine. When it lost ground, everything went haywire (wouldn't start, ran rough, couldn't time it).

Check the ground! It cant hurt.

Hmm, I will add grounds to my motors. Funny, I have always been a believer in good grounds, and usually add multiple ground straps to my cars (V8 American cars). But I had never thought of the engine ground on a VW.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:32 pm

Two thoughts...

Check your battery and do a compression test on each cylinder...

1. If your battery is not providing sufficient amperage, could cause a hard start. Spins the starter but not enough to get a hot spark.

2. Might have low compression in one or more cylinders. May had / has this problem and can be a pain in the ass to start until I get some compression going. Also is all over the map trying to keep her tuned.

I would check # 2 first to rule it out...

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:38 pm

The issue at hand sounds to me to be carburetor related. I have had needle and seats stick open and cause the fuel in the bowl to pour into the carburetor, even when just sitting. Check the oil for traces of fuel.

Also, pop the distributer cap and turn the motor over, make sure the rotor is turning.

The problem also sounds like it may have jumped timing. Even with starting fluid a motor thats way off will not start. Several things would cause this.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:51 pm

Mike I will ground the motor. Matt battery is on the charger, and I will do a compression check as soon as I can. David the distributor rotor is working fine (saw it turn when I did the valves) I do agree that it may be something with the carb, but it never smells flooded. It just acts it. How would a geared system jump timing?? And my second confusion is once it does start (the two times it did) it runs fantastic. I know that the fuel pump is working fine.......pumped fuel all over myself......could this be the fuel accelorator in the carb???
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:59 pm

If you adjusted the points after setting the timing the timing will be off again as it is affected by the dwell setting. If it is hard to start when hot that usually means the valves are too tight. Try setting the valves at .007-.008 and see if that helps. As Matt said, do a compression test. This will verify which cylinder(s) are giving you trouble. Double check your points and then re-time it. I am not sure what distributor you are running but if it is a 009 you need to time it at full advance with the engine turning about 3500 rpm. Be sure to check your intake boots as well and verify that you are getting fuel to the carburetor. Undo the line at the pump and see if fuel is reaching the pump the check it at the carb. You can have someone crank the starter and hold the line into a cup to confirm it is pumping fuel. If you have fuel and spark it should run as it was running before. Heavy black soot on the plugs also means it is running very rich and needs to be leaned out a touch.

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:01 pm

We were posting at the same time. It would be my best guess it has something to do with the valves or the ignition system. I would double check all of that. If you cannot figure it out maybe I can get some time and help you out.

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:27 am

All ignition items are new, electroninc 009, engine was just overhauled, been running for a month. No intake boots an a 40. Valves just set this morning at .006. Battery just charged....just tried again no joy.. still will only fire when held wide open. It tries to fire but just wont catch and stay running.....no smell of gas???? I will need help thanks for the offer. I have time Tuesday. Thursday and Friday eves.....Hope to be at Ranch run this weekend....good thing its not this bug I am taking!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:55 pm

I know you said it works, but man that sounds like a fuel pump to me
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:06 pm

Either that or a plugged filter/line.

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:28 pm

You could be getting air in you'r fule line. Had the same thing with my bug and replaced the rubber line with a bradded line and that took care of mine...
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:26 pm

All new braided lines, no problem with fuel to pump or pump to carb.


Last edited by Breck on Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:04 pm

Another thought.....Run a 12v "hot lead" jumper to your coil instead of the black wire from your ignition switch. I've seen ignition switches go bad. You may have weak or sporadic 12 volts to the coil.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:54 pm

That is a very good idea Eric. The coil itself could be experiencing some issues. Remember Breck we are all just shooting ideas towards you. You may have already checked all of these things but you never know what you might come across.

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:31 am

Thanks for all your help, The lines are new the ingnition switch is new (dosnt mean its not crap so I will try the route around) Even if its was a fuel supply issue it does not explain why gas straight down the carb nets nothing.....or starter fluid!!! so I am stumped!!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:50 am

That is what is leading me towards ignition. I would check power to your coil as Eric suggested. If you can take an extra spark plug and unplug a wire and connect it to the plug. Ground it to the engine and see if it sparks.

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:06 pm

I will for sure try it!! anybody got a stock clean working 28 pict. I figure if I slap one on that we know works than I can rule it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:37 pm

Ok guys and gals. I just checked the spark at all four cylinders it is bright and consistant, I also checked it on Pete to compair.. looks the same. Also while shining a flash light down the carb moved the accelerator, even the slightest movement releases fuel... once again I compaired it to Pete.....looks and acts the same. Today the car is trying harder to run but still wont catch. If you hold the pedel down it behaves as if it runs on the prime then stops.... confused confused confused
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:25 am

The only thing I can say Breck is if it sits for a while and won't start with starting fluid you have an ignition problem either voltage or timing related. It almost sounds to me as if you have it too far retarded. I would have someone try to start it and move the distributor at the same time back and forth. It may just pick up and run. Who knows...just an idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:30 am

I hear ya Dann. I have static timed it four times. Timed it with a light twice (when it ran) I am missing something. The kicker is that it has run for a month with no problems. It started just like my 73.......just a blip on the key and away she went. Then one day hard to start. The next she flamed out on the freeway and here we are. Compression test tomorrow if I get time.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:26 am

OK I'm thinking back to HS auto shop. (again) An engine needs three things to run, fuel, compression and spark. You know you have spark. You know you have fuel. You should be able to assume you have compression if it has run. An intermittent compression problem would be hard to believe. Although you did say it originally would die and would have to cool down before you could restart it. mabey you started losing compression as the engine got hot. I dont know

What are the chances its just bad gas. have you tried starting it with a little starting fluid to see if she will start?
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:29 am

Compression check is quick and easy. One more thing to rule out. Might have a valve that is sticking, burnt or even a broken ring. I dunno...

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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:22 am

Thanks guys gonna try and do the compression check today
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PostSubject: Re: Help Help Help Meeeeeeee   Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:12 pm

We'll see where that leads us.

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